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  hello! while we wait i suggest to look around (the links)
  last time we were hosted on some friends servers (stuff2233) for writing and on autistici server for calling (autistici.org). This time by constant association http://constantvzw.org most of the links are not working for me in this  website. Everytime i try to open a link its a blank page. Anyone else? e.g. http://constantvzw.org/site/-Books-with-an-Attitude,209-.html that's weird!- try a different browser? (but it does open a page?) Yeah, not so well supported for Safari apparently http://books.constantvzw.org/
  could be as it s a pretty new website/design
  and i recommend having a look at this pad    for some reflections and tools - contextualizing the infrastructural/hosting/technical question:                                 
https://pad.vvvvvvaria.org/digital-solidarity-networks
All the links work for me if anyone interested (like me, Gersandehahaha) here's a link to possible internships with them http://constantvzw.org/site/Internships.html 
all the links work for me too
We are waiting only for 2 more people. Marite won't  join today.Chloe neither, so we are all there? yesok, coolcan peoplechoose other colours? yesyes,do thatI  see 3 of them are  so  similar i dont know who's talking (in the sense of different people) I dont know how to change color.Why do you have to know who is talking?  top corner not who is talking but it is nice to know those are two (or more) different voices. yes okay
So should we throw our notes in?
let's try to do it with order this time.haha "try".what do  you   suggest?
first of all, any questions/urgent things from last time?some issues you wanted to deepen etc - that could be of general interest not for m nopnot for me either

ok, so if there are no things from last time, perhaps we can start from orderly pasting just the first exercise, the writing. (before reading the passages) Writing what?Relation to biblio
and let's maybe give it 10 minutes for pasting and reading through - try to underline the emerging questions/ or let's actually rewrite them

Sometimes bibliography and  footnotes gets confusing to me. What is the difference between them? Do we add in the bibliography all the things we have in our footnotes? Yes, the bibliography is a sum up at the end of the text of all the footnotes that are in the text.ty
also things that don't make it into notes and footnotes but supposedly inform the text (see the leeds guidelines)

Bibliographies are sources for new exciting ideas. Going to the source can be like digging into someone’s  library. (unpacking library-library love refs: http://kit.ntnu.no/sites/www.kit.ntnu.no/files/A%20reading%20from%20Unpacking%20my%20library%20by%20Walter%20Benjamin.pdf - https://www.passaporta.be/en/magazine/library-love ) Benjamin and Preciado sound like beautiful texts to follow!So good!

1)
A bibliography is a space for references, of quoted roads that have been borrowed on the way to one space, but presents the trails to other spaces. It is a kind of airport (skyroads, cloudtrails) , all the options you’ve heard about are layed out in front of you,as a departure board, any lead can be taken, back and forth, towards a shared horizon, that has different perspectives. 

I see reading as a parcours. Every writing references to other ones and opens up the doors to a next reading. Can a bibliography constitute an essay in itself? Luca (cant remember their last name rn)nicewill look it up if you can find the name back!!!LUCA SOUDANT  lucasoudant.com thanks (critical studies grad) wrote a text where half of it was footnotes. Every page had almost more footnote than '''''text''''' This makes me think of how to reach the minimum wordcount for an essay by "cheating".I did that for my final exam in geography filled the space with maps, I wonder if including more 'illustrative'content is at the end such a cheat if a point is being made?I think this is a good question, I feel like we are not discussing non-language scources even though they can be very important. ometimes you would just use a longer quote that get's the same message accross so the text becomes longer..... Do the references already talk for themselves? Crossing these references illustrating what is the meeting point of these references, into a temporal recipe of ideas, producing a hybrid theory, narration. 

A bibliography constitutes a togetherness of texts at the end of one production, but that said production can become part of a bibliography. So in that sense texts are particles of a same togetherness, assemble that is also a particle of another realm of theories, found answers and systems, that are rediscussed, reformulated, evolving in time and space. 

I see a bibliography as a menu to find answers as well as a surrounding to discover, pursue, to fit into or to go against. 

1) My current thoughts/questions about bibliography and the related ideas of reference, source, citation etc. are heavily related to having studied at the university where I had to write many essays. I right now can't think of it in any other context than me having been there. I wonder if the Rietveld has its own citation style?So, official rietveld guidelines refer to"
Use footnotes or endnotes, complying with the Oxford guidelines.
http://www.galeschools.com/research_tools/src/footnote.htm "-->broken link, but anyway oxford style is recommendedokay thanks!
what do you mean by citation style?There are many ways in how you can make your bibliography, it can be down to different order of Author, publisher, or can even mean comma's in the right place. In academics there are multiple citation styles in use, different departments in the university use different styles. I wonder how that works at Rietveld. hm interesting I never thought about it as a signature style, just as a different code of notation In my opinion, the citation style doesn't really matter, as long as it gives all important information. In academics people tend to get way too anal (love that expression) about it. It would happen that you write a perfect essay in university but then you don't get a 10 because you missed a comma or whatever. That does sound anal, embeded code, almost sounds like coding a website they wouldn't get the algorithm if punctuation is missing/misplaced the template wouldn't show<<I like this refference
academic/didactic aspect of bibliography

1) 
Notes on bibliography (Loïc)  <3<3(yo!:)) 

Helps root and ground your writing, by putting it in context and connecting it to other texts… 
Connection makes it authoritative? 

Is authority truthful? 
What kind of knowledge is authoritative? --> presentation, How something is written
authoritative vs authority what is authoritative?  ? Isnt authoritative regarding trustworthiness and authority about ownership? This also makes me think of gossip as a source of power (but often reduced to a stupid (female) activity) without a source. But everyone that holds the gossip is in powerrr.
and authority of who?

 ‘vicious circle of authority and citation’: ‘authority is the source of the citation but the citation is the source of authority’ (Agamben)

‘The twentieth-century linguistic turn, which translated traditional philosophical problems into questions about language, had a significant impact on epistemology as well as other fields, suggesting that the problem of knowledge was at bottom a problem concerning how to use the verb “to know” correctly, and that a close analysis of linguistic practice could answer most if not all of our epistemological questions. Perhaps most dramatic was the impact on accounts of truth, which came to be widely understood as a sort of exclamation point on a sentence without substantive meaning.’

-Epistemology: The Bigger Questions, Linda Martin Alcoff,  p.viii  

hierarchy of sources (primary/secondary/tertiary..) what count as source? who count as citable? e.g. "personal correspondence" is a method/way/integrated and accepted in academia of involving personal contacts etc.
Do our direct accounts/testimonies matter if we don’t turn them into footnotes? Is our voice alone not  worth its value?I am also wondering about how to make the distinction between important connections to make (with a bibliography) and unimportant ones.I have also run into this problem in the past when writing an academic text, what if you have a source, but this source has no official authority? In academic citating style there is not even a way to citate it given.Isn't then an anecdote?(=unpublished) Or are talking about sources that are not seen as academically valid? While being at university I did not find an answer to that, so I don't know.I feel like this is where academics and the rest of the world can clash.Raises an interesting question: can you not write without embeded references? do "geniouses" write do we ever 'create' a text (or create) without references? hahaha I do not think geniouses like that exist, but they might just hide their references.Maybe if they did case studies, they can reference their own research without referencing other people.  Its just playing with the fakeness of a genious, and their solitude.
what do you mean?
What I mean is that sometimes you read something and then you see there is a footnote and it makes perfect sense to you and you’re like how is this a footnote? and then the fact that it has a footnote makes it dead and you know they’re talking about something alive
It needs to be justified through reference you mean when something is only understandable through a reference?or made understandable okay then i get it. sometimes it's not really an option to reference or not though, if there is a reference, you should mention it to give the credit to who's reference it is
No of course, and it's not necessarily a question of ownership but more of communicationI like the idea of footnotes being dead and the present text being alive, even though it could turn into a footnote itself
'You should reference' doesnt show the mindset of ownership?  Do we own  thoughts? Who  thought it/said it  first? do you MUST reference the source or else youre evil?it's not black and white
I think there's also so many different angles to understand both the thing that you read and the reference from. 
READ  BOTTOM.WE AREMOVING ONOKEsrry<3

what  if me, Gersande,would reference Gerry, Gesmondo, my tongue... and other voices as references?(in reference to the dialogues I write  for IP) Depends, do you want it to be an academic text or not?Can I do such in an Academic Text?Not sure. I think there should be a way but don't know how. yes you can, although there are interesting issues. Personal correspondence is accepted in ref/biblio, but normally it is with some person considered ;relevant' 'authoritative' on the subject. of course most writing is filled with all kind of personal conversations...but it's kept in the background/pre-work. feminist bibliographies tend to challenge this issue< how? interested in it how would you challenge this?🥺idk, I  want to  say that topics  are  already challenging the 'relevant authoritative' of subjects when it comes to feminism. Referencing ones own experience of  sexism is  already challenging the issue of  what/how to reference. More to say anyone??
there is no one more authoritive on the subject of Gersande than Gersande and Gerry, Gesmondo etc... Official Gersande agressivity


Bibliography is the first thing I read in a book, often more informative than the content/intro Bibliography can  give you more information about  what is it that you're going to read. Its a summary. Shall  we  all  start reading by the bibliography? feel free to try :)Is a bibliography made to be understood by itself?  love the idea! also, I sometimes find it exclusive, by that I mean that the understanding of a text requires the digestion of some/many books. Sometimes, ideas and concept are not re-explained, but just referenced and took as granted.Yes.

To me a bibliography is like the background of what is written. It gives the text context and also power. like embrodery, with front side and back side (no one is able to make proper embroderies looking the same on both sides haha) then the knot on the back tells a lot about the path/structure



Can we now try to sum up the emerging questions?down here

Can  we be our own source/reference?
what do you mean by citation style?
Can a bibliography constitute an essay in itself?
Is a bibliography made to be understood by itself? 
Do our direct accounts/testimonies matter if we don’t turn them into footnotes? 
When is something a source and when is something an anecdote?
Connection makes it authoritative? 
Is authority truthful? 
How to put non language sources into a bibliography, how to give them the same importance as the written word?

great to see the books :)

ok, shall we try to move on to the texts? and then we get back to these through thatyesyesyesyesyes (https://monoskop.org/images/7/72/Derrica_Jacques_1984_1992_Ulysses_Gramophone_Hear_Say_Yes_In_Joyce.pdf )
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////so let's try again to paste in 'order' your notes 
can we make one 'words i dont know' list?okay yes!please

WORDS WE DONT UNDERSTANDS:can I paste in definitions or is it open question place? you can paste<3!! source defintions:https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/polysemous
looked up and loved to find out this one: Polysemous: having multiple meaningsAlso should we reference where we got the definitions from?
https://www.etymonline.com/ - this one is a great tool
stereographic?  page 1)of, relating to, or being a delineation of the form of a solid body (such as the earth) on a plane
stereophony (p.1) (this one connects to last week's "polyphonic game")yes, thanksof, relating to, or constituting sound reproduction involving the use of separated microphones and two transmission channels to achieve the sound separation of a live hearing
Oued                         (Page 1)1
: the bed or valley of a stream in regions of southwestern Asia and northern Africa that is usually dry except during the rainy season and that often forms an oasis : GULLY, WASH
2: a shallow usually sharply defined depression in a desert region
Semelfractive(???)  (Page 1)expressing action as single in its occurrence without repetition or continuation : INSTANTANEOUS, MOMENTARY(nice) 
Anterior                (Page 2) !!! other similar words?ante.. anterior means in spanish previous.
1a: situated before or toward the frontan anterior ligament
b: situated near or toward the head or part most nearly corresponding to a head
2: coming before in time or developmentlabor problems anterior to the strike
Neologisms                (Page 2) !!! a newly coined word or expression (google?does google provide definitions now?-->it's a search engine, look down, tiny- the source :))  yes sorry, being slow no, i just thought it was a good excuse to point this out --google as authority!(they say it's form oxford and when you click on it u end up here: https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/neologism) 
1: a new word, usage, or expressiontechnological neologisms
2psychology : a new word that is coined especially by a person affected with schizophrenia and is meaningless except to the coiner, and is typically a combination of two existing words or a shortening or distortion of an existing word
fons (page 2 ---> i did find on online dicitonary that it can mean source or founts https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fons)  
hitherto (p.3)up to this or that time
passably1
a: capable of being passed, crossed, or traveled onpassable roads
b: capable of being freely circulated
oued
‘intertext’, is this literally the name for text that is not in quotation marks?-a literary text that is related to one or more other texts, esp through the use of allusions to these texts (https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/intertext)




2)
‘The Text is plural.’
> underlne that not only plural in meanings
 It is a passage, an overcrossing, a weave of signifiers.
Always loved the possibilities a text offers to its reader, not one story is heard, understood, read in a same way. What it offers is multilayered, divided and one, all at the same time. Of course, throughout its understanding, but also through its interpretation, intentions, overlapping ideas/ concepts and generated ones.  Julio Cortázar (Argentina)wrote Hopscotch (rayuela). A (counter)novel because the reader can choose which chapters to read and the story has different plots and endings. Just like the game, you jump from one block to the other, also Perec's Life a users manualHear of it!! Should maybe look it up...I  missed a chapter in this book the first time I read it. get lost in the pages so good
‘Their combination is unique, found the stroll in a difference repeatable only as difference.’
‘it [the Text] can be it only in its difference’

‘The intertextual in which every text is held, it itself being the text-between of another text’
> A text is an update made in the conceptual/ fictional realm source and to be sourced, as well as out-sourced

‘Any text is a new tissue of past citations’
>evolution past ideas

‘there is always language before and around text.’
>Is text not language as well? Or is text a language in itself to be differentiated from vocals? Text is a tool of language maybe.
Can it even be used in a same sentence as two different entities?what is it?text+languag im still  confusedhaha I just wonder about these two notions being seperate I guess, for I see text as a form of language not as separated entities, like a branch maybe
What is language meant to be in that context? A system? Or a signifier? A process? Or a cultural marker? I like them  all!

‘concept of intertext (…) -an image which makes sure the text had the status not of a reproduction but of productivity’
>The Text is always production, even the attempt of reproduction is productivity, so when the intentions lie in reproductivity, what remains is productivity with no re-.Can we use another  word that is not production(not tied to economic systems) such as creation maybe?But then it goes towards the author being a inherent creator of Text try to substitute production
The Text is always ______, even the attempt of re______ is ______ivity, so when the intentions lie in re______ivity, what remains is ______ivity with no re-.It sounds then like spontaneous knowledge, no external stimulus I just want  to play to put other words that is not PRODUCT in it to see what they say about the text.good trick, I appreciateI would love people here to try  to add words in the blank spaces. A little game? �🎊🎉🎀🎏

Text= ‘interlacing of codes, formulae and signifiers’

‘The author is the principle of thrift in the proliferation of meaning.’
>So the author uses words, combination of words/ideas/concepts/references carefully. Productivity, with no or very little waste.

‘the author does not precede the works: he is a certain functional principle by which (…) one impedes the free circulation, the free composition, decomposition, and recomposition of fiction.’
>the author as a traffic agent. Enables to stop, go forward, forces to go back, might overlook an incident.Yet the written word suggests a time order, it has a beginning and an end. Well that is to be questioned with the notion of intertext and the author not as a creator but a communication tool of shared compositions, then the linearity of text is being questioned

‘we fear the proliferation of meaning’
>interesting (axiom)(fact)(thingtosay)

Polysemous texts
>about the meaning of words

‘fiction and its polysemous texts will (once again) function (…) with a system of constraint’
>is the making of a text only possible under constraint?

‘What are the modes of existence of this discourse?’

‘What difference does it make who is speaking?’all
Some themes/subjects/concerns, should only be treated by concerned individuals/communities or one invited to engage, take part take on the subject, depending circumstances.the  speaker can be an invador

‘The particular power of quotations (…) to expel from the context’
>Always thought there was a great power and nasty pleasure in the decontextualization of a quote whatever that might be, the reapropriation and then now this quote would be on a temporary vacation, soon to be reinvented.

‘The past can only be fixed in the image that appears once and for all in the instant of its alienation.’
I like this projection.


>P1. 
what he perceives is multiple, irreducible, coming from a disconnected, heterogeneous variety of substances and perspectives: lights, colours, vegetation, heat, air, slender explosions of noises, scant cries of birds, children’s voices from over on the other side, passages, gestures, clothes of inhabitants near or far away. 
This is to  say his perception (and ours) is rhizomatic. All the elements join us at once, there’s no order nor priority (colour doesn’t  come before  vegetation or air. Noises don’t come before lights and shadows)

>P2.
The dominant image is that of the springing up of pure and freshwater from invisible depths  Beautiful lines

[In regards of Hans-George Gadamer, Truth and Method ]
Source and (water/life/love) spring (of knowledge) are both in Spanish  the  same word. Fuente.

>P3.
[in regards of Foucault’s What is an Author?] What  is the difference between an author and a writer? Can a writer not be an author?  How  do  we call someone that collects and gathers stories without their own input?  Right after we have Agamben writing about B. Walter saying ‘the authority invoked by the quotation is founded precisely on the destruction of the authority that is attributed to a certain text by its situation in the history of culture’ is that an answer to my question?
a man might write the works of others,adding and changing nothing, in which case he is simply called a "scribe" (scriptor"). Another writes the work of others with additions which are not his own; and he is called a "compiler" (compilator). Another writes both others' work and his own, but with others' work in principal place, adding his own for purposes of explanation; and he is called a "commentator" (commentator)...Another writes both his own work and others' but his own work in principal place adding others' for purposes of confirmation; and such man should be called an "author" (auctor).
(Bonaventura)-->13th century franciscan friar why is men always the primal source?well, here we are in medieval times - besides it may be generic (though only men were in university) This relates again to feminist bibliographies. I dont think we have a necessary answer to it, but its a necessary question, also to know when we look for our on bibliography for our texts, to  keep in mind 'why is men always the primal source?' and  exhaust this question until its not relevant anymore
http://wiki.evaweinmayr.com/index.php/The_Colophon

>P.4
It puts your work in context, demonstrates the breadth and depth of your research, and acknowledges other people’s work 
Is that the only reason to reference? To demonstrate the depth of your  research and acknowledge other’s work? I want to reference for other reasons. Why do you reference [that is not that said reason]?What are these other reasons you have? Or, are you asking for other reasons because you don't know yet? I dont know, or I feel unable to answer by myself that question, but I want to reference to share gratitude to my grand father maybe. Or to write collectively.

t makes me think of gossip and gossip being a form of power (but often reduced to a stupid (feminine) activity) without a source, but with everyone that holds the gossip having power. Gossip originally doesn't exist in written text. why does gossip not originally exist in written text? maybe it does.. but maybe its seen as less autorative when its not written?Trump's tweets are more authoritive than his speeches sometimes, yes :P I feel like his tweet's go all around the world, while I don't listen to his speeches so often haha. We should all read Matilda's thesis. Its about gossip. GOSSIP used to mean a good (feminine) friend, now its turned derogative.

2) 

'passage, an overcrossing' (Barthes, P.1) 

 to build a bridge, cross the bridge then burn it down (i think this is from an Erykah Badu song haha) 
 “A word is a bridge thrown between myself and another. If one end of the bridge depends on me, then the other depends on my addressee. A word is territory shared by both addresser and addressee, by the speaker and his interlocutor.” 
Valentin N. Volosinov 
 
 'regulator of the fictive' (Foucault, P.3) 
 
 regulate-mediate

’the mediator of the fictive? 

perhaps it’s best if an author (poet) should be nameless would it then also be an idea to have our footnotes and bibliographies to be nameless? Like you aknowledge you got the information somewhere, but don't share where no you do of course, but it's more like that what is important, who is speaking or what is being said?  i think its not so much important who is speaking but it is important to know where they come from / are. yes the context of the person speaking or writing can change everythingthe source also enables to track down information of interest not only credits no for suremaybe also the anonimity frees the knowledge of authority but constrains the author in communication, circumcise shared thinking, we think of references again in a way as dead sources, of authorities that are unreachable, when it is also a network in which some people are still at reach
relation aknowledgments and bibliography -- something to think about relation to what? the "thanks" session normally come to include those voices and conversations we were first discussing - friends, not authoritative sources etc -- so there is a defined space for grouping these, recognizing these diff sources but excluding them from the coherence of the bibliography/sources okay.but obviously we are here to contest all conventions :) sometimes those 'relation aknowledgements' can also not be people maybe, but places or other things that are referenced.How to quote a God, how to quote a tree, how to quote my dog, how to quote the skythrough your experience of it?"Today I am hot" - The wheater, Wednesday 8th of April but maybe i dont want to literally quote them but i do want to give them credits and show them as a source. Maybe I want to literally quote them though :-) I like that yes respect. Would be nice to quote them academic style hahatry it.Hmm this is where I find these academic styles quite restricting, because they are so often limited to the written word. https://libraryguides.vu.edu.au/ld.php?content_id=16746815 how to quote screams IN ALL CAPShahahaha, of course 
P. 3-4

Homer - author, actually many people? 

somehow these people have been unified into one character, person

(centrifugal force) 

could this be the same fore that Agamben mean when the talking about Benjamin and this alienating and aggressive force that he felt in quotations? 





"to try to find the ‘sources’, the ‘influences’ of a work, is to fall in with the myth of filiation; the citations which go to make up a text are anonymous, untraceable, and yet already read: they are quotations without inverted commas." what is the meaning of myth here?
what is the myth of filiation?yesits not a yes/no question no, its a question: what is the myth of filiation?  filiation: "the fact of being descended or derived from something (like your parents)" and in relation to myth? i read it as in that there are so many refences are intertwined with each other that you can't point at one of them as being the source. Like pointing at one is pointing at all of them. 

can we try to sum up the different ideas of source? what is a source? different ways of seeing it and relating to it I  am still  reading/commenting.yes me too!! 
ok! i would also like to hear how you are moving through this! is it all chaotic up and down or you are following some pattern? for me it's non linear commenting and reading what I like.I like that here there is some time to react to something. Like when you have a conversation you have to react immediatly, but here there is some time so scroll back to it. 
you know about the timeslider feature? that's something interesting in itself no? what is it.top right, the clock, you can play it back, while the pad performs :)it's really nice!!amazing!!!
I also like to experience movement in my vision and react to it, goes up and down, and I can witness a conversation as take part 
My computer just flipped with the timeslider haha

on pad dynamics (and texts):
    
..We are not subtle enough to perceive the probably absolute
flow of becoming; the permanent exists only thanks to our
coarse organs which summarise things and reduce them to
common levels, when in fact nothing exists in that form. The
tree is at each instant a new thing; we assert form because we
do not grasp the subtlety of an absolute movement. 

The text is likewise this tree to which we can (provisionally)
give a name only because of the coarseness of our organs. (barthes, quoting nietzche) 

question/issue that you would like to further question/investigate?  
do we have  to reply to  them now?

>>How to use an object /sound/ place as a source?/Refferencing style for non language sources, or even fictional sources?????

>>Gossip

>>How to make different kinds of sources more "equal"?Yes! how to come up with a non-hierachal bibliography <3 But sometimes you also wanna put certain sources on the background and others on the foreground?Yes, but i find a lot in writing that the written sources get prioritized and then of course the more academic the more 'authoritave' 

>>How is a source created? Do you create a source or do you find it?In traditional literature, sources need a person who spoke/said/wrote/screamed it first. How do you create that? Is being a cis man a requirement to be a source  creator?  are they sorcerers?

>>Also in the case you create 'a source' to what extend is it in your hands? Question of responisibility 

>>Do you need to source the sources of your source?(babbling creeks) Like a hopscotch or rope skipping!! Normally if the source of your source is saying the same thing as your source, why not use the first source?In academics you would have towhat if you're saying the same thing as your source? why use your source?lolmaybe your source is the boss of the world hahahaha and you want credibility. YES that is the whole thing, coming back to voice of authorities, can you be eligible to have written an academic text if there are no sources? Only the O.S. (original sources) aka the ```Original Men who Thought before us'''' can. Plato etcare they the OS though, it excludes oral sources, so yu cannot reference to oral sources? In an ironic way they are  the O.S.I guess we are coming back to the same questions as we already hadlife spins
benjamin's "art of citing without quotation marks"

>>What are the official guidelines or requirements from our academic institution (Mr Rietveld) for a bibliography?(besides that the oxford style is recommended) i'll send it through list, maybe we can pick some things out / in your inbox!

>>How do you source your source to make sure the source is eligible as such and not just speculated upon? 🤪�🤪🤪😜🤪🤨 what u can do emojis?? 😗 yesamazed

>>are all sources traceable? (thinking about the 'first' source)RIGHT, are all source traceable or transcrivable? This is again tracing back to Platonic ideas. can we actually access the 'ideas'? Or only the fragments?Also without being so conceptual what Indoor Irony enounced with quoting entities, like weather, god, whatever is it wordly possible?Can I quote the weather by taking a picture of the sky?are u gonna be in it too? But are sourcesnot trying to be the trace, not the ideas.sources are the signifier, but theirsignified take many shapesah yes! but then also coming back to plato do these traces form a trail? or a shape?  I think a network. a web! A weaaaaave 😍yes but that would mean it can't be bigger than two meters in width  Or idk,


and what about txt own sources and tradition? no comments on the fact that we finally encountered some of the more or less hidden references for txt!? do you mean textile metaphors in text?there is txt metaphors everywhereifyoure eager for it. I'm not eager for it.... :-) me neighter ;) im confused by what you mean with txt.
i mean you all heard and probably took up the textile-text, but through the concept of intertextuality we get also to broaden and deepen that 'baggage' of txt. instead of taking it as a inner language of the department we get to position it in relation to tradition, and so to question - with our own case - the issue of sources--> as influence? inspiration? contamination? I really see sources as a big contamination many times. We cant escape them and they asfixiate me often tradition?I don't think I understand the question
so for instance - when the textile- text idea is unspoken, unreferenced, we relate to it differently than when we can locate it (or attempt to) - you d have a harder time trying to engage with the department tradition and assumptions without a reference - now by reading barthes you get (i think) an opening for a conversationI still don't get it, a conversation about what?some of the fundations of the department- it s engagement of theory and practice, weaving and text, social frabric etc. but maybe you have not been contaminated by it!so you don't recognize it now that we speak of it..I think this is the part of the department tradition that I have been trying to maybe not be a part of so much, I don't think it's for me.Maybe its about it (this txt-idea) having its place in a bigger picture when its not the centre of the conversation, but a source. I love that tradition, spoken word teaching, group learning is  part of the  tradition of the department. Can we all mention Joost after all we learned? Is  she the source? Or the source is womxn's hands?
i feel these references  came to us from Joke on the first year.Its not the first time  encountering barthes and D&G<3(Delouze&Guatari) so 
hey actually about sources, is not what makes the source the flow, like it's obviously alluding to water the whole time
what would be the difference between spring/source (in the sense gadamer means) and source in (myth of) filiation?  I understand source as the root, and filiation as the outcome of the root?filiation=parenting Isnt then 'filiation' taking care of the children and 'source' taking care of the elderly?love the imagehah that sounds nice!!the theory of the intertext, and intertextuality are a reaction to the traditional idea of filiation, linearity and all the questions of authority and tradition that come with that--and are ideas that move outside the text-or extend the text to the social at large (btw the idea 'comes'/first introduced by/from julia kristeva)FINALLYbut she is harder to read!and barthes was her professor and helped bringing attention to her and this ideas -and is easer to readI feel pads come from intertextuality and point to hypertextuality...


I think of force, also to what Agamben was saying about Benjamin in the last text. But I think with sources it's always the question where they come from

about documentation -- if we remove the NOPUBLISH it will be archived via constant's etherdump. supposedly they also have a script that archives an html preserving colors (but last time i checked it was not working)

call: https://calls.disroot.org/essaytxt2

The call is on
Pay attention
I pay my attention     
Loïc having technical issues
one minute
attention is postponed by 1 minute
test 1
Comes a point we all loose concentration BUT let's wrap it up and introduce what is nextyes
So 
First, does it workthe pad?does what work? Take the time to think and write? We doing call/writting at the same time
I report what we say
In class all these mutliple conversations would be on top of eachother but here everyone has a chance to talk with eachother
I think with the pad its  easier to keep track of the words and we can be more exact. We can also jump from one topic to another in order 
When you write question you'd like to investigate more would you like them to be point onto or would you like to have more time to investigate them?what does point onto mean? There is a point in the pad in which you wrote down some questions (now underlined) those questions: are they question that you would go on on investigating or would you want to take some time to read back the text and our conversation adn find one question/one topic to elaborate? There are questions I would investigate yes, but indeed not to write an essay about.THIS IS NOT FOR THE FINAL ESSAY I think they could both be interesting. I want my questions answered. 
Mixing question between how and what of research, all these questions preparatory to what you would like to research, but here invesitgating what is the frame self, will be more focused later
Question: Can you hold on on some of the question that came up, or you underlined in relation to what it is that you want to research? we have not talked yet about what we want to research?Yesno we havent but this is an open question.  Do you feel this conversations will  lead  somewhere for your research?which research? For the essay we are gonna write for this class
Not to disappear behind your investigation question, but that somehow this is integrated
PLease don't use the word research anymore, be clear, you have the essay and you have other assignments and you have the thesis. When you say research I don't know what you mean because these three things dont overlap/are not the same.
I am confusion. 

i feel this pressing questions are regarding today and what  I want to continue researching

This essay that, as in actual written piece, doesn't need to be your thesis question, but can be an exercise in writing thinking literature, but can be a first step towards your thesis, but maybe absurd to think we are already ready to make a choice for our thesis.not absurd
Luna talking about starting to start deal with the thesis because less access to workshops, etcI want that too

Not to feel pressure, especially with people disoriented, push a bit not to pressure yourself into starting with your thesis, but start orienting yourself with what COULD be your thesis, what interact, interests ttowards your thesis.
If you would start now with your thesis, without going around different ways of dealing with the thesis, instead of questioning, sources, positioning ourselves in how to make research. If you assume that you already know all that, thesis becomes requirement, instead of precious moment of doing thesis. 

BUT, not what was wanted to be discussed now. 

Proposition because of 3weeks gap: writing a small piece that makes use of these previous readings and pads conversations as references, as material, up to you if you are gonna use these topics, that are of interest to you or if you are more gonna self-reflect. Doesn't need to be ONLY resources.

Luna: try not to put things from the outside but also focus on new content

Loïc: but look into what is of interests of yours

Luna: not go look for references on the outside but in the ones we already have here in the pads

Not a probleme to add some references, we can bring together those references.

IMPORTANT don't already part away from each other, but still have a shared thinking, with these classes important to keep this sense for shared questions while proceeding orienting yourself towards your own question

Relate to the ideas, things we spoke about, but not limit yourself to topics discussed in the pad?  yes please thank you

Could people pick their question , something of their interest to write thei little piece about, everybody really sources their idea? Inevitable

Everybody can do what they want but common obstruction?
Guidline for Cecile: thanks. The common obstruction is: these reflections integrate previous material in pads as inspiration material to reflect etc.... Ok, so topic can be anything still?  Yes read bellow 
How the writing that you do, your investigations talk back to what has happened, been discussed in these pads.

These questions relate to artistic practice in general, this is what is around the table and makes it interesting, with this general obstruction, up to us to invesitgate keeping a sensibility to the group discussions. 

PROPOSAL
For next week small piece through the mailinglist (wednesday) when everyone has sent their text to the list, there can be a discussion through the pad or mailinglist, give more substance to things discussed before
Works, thinking done, should keep on contaminate each otherI would love to treat our own written texts in the same way as we did with the other texts we have read thusfar.everyone takes notes and we put them here and then respond ANITA SAYS YES, but then (luna) content/questions/notes should be limited so it is not too much workthats fair, everyone writes two comments or questions per text?Luna's says one, minimum one, maximum two?that sounds funI think we could learn a lot from it
Week after try to relate to "questions of general interest" does this mean other questions then here in the pad? are they new questions? i think those are questions that arrise in the pieces that we will write.

When you read a text, some text arise issues and others not, so maybe to limit it to one text(should text be question here?) is not goodI dont get this sentenceyou don't always have something to say about some content, and others really trigger youI think we should at least make sure everyone's texts gets the same attention, not that some people don't get questions while other get a lot. Then we don't all get the same opportunity to learn from it.

What about, for each of the text there is one question: something you would like to discuss (or not) one one side a question and other side you take something of the text you find interesting and elaborate it further, make it your own referenceSo, one question and one comment?yupokay Use someone as an 'authority' reference, as legitimate as a 'Barthes'wait, I'm not sure we are talking about the same thing still. Feedback for the piece of writing next weekOKay so we are talking about the same thing still good :-) (:
    
    These questions: how we give ourselves this exercice, generated by discussions that we had. So what would be a meaningful way to give a feedback to that assignment?I thought we just discussed how to do that? We find a meaningful way to shape the next exercise(Anita giving up her teacher authority)
    
    Interesting how everyone will suddenly put all these references and links and footnotes to everyone and to the people/combination with classmates and people that we read
    
    Luna proposes that each of us writes a text that is a limited length (maybe 500-1000words-including footnotes etc), one week to write it, write in a topic you're interested in, but write with something that is in relation to the pad (one two three things), but it can be referencing something else, even though some things are personal we come back to it together for we discussed it together, then read it all, then come back to the pad, and there each of us raises one question and/slash one note on the text that each of us wrote, in total there would be 10 question/comment and we would have a week to go back to these questions and answer, discuss them
    
    IS IT CLEAR DOES IT MAKE SENSE, WANT TO AYES, it is clearDD SOMETHING?NO, don't want to add
    I'm exited excited? C? yes clear but i might phonecall one of the videocall people to also get a spoken instruction, hahaaaawe going for a walk in a minute :)))))))) where what who virtually?Annita is sending a mail also!!!okay.
    OKAY DEADLINES: Next class is in 4 weeks, so should happen before, for  April 15th all text sent, and by the 20th open the pad and discuss themclearvery clearclosing the discussion nowso wait one sec, three days to comment in the pad? Because above in the underlined bold part it says 1 week, but 15th to 17th of april is not one week obviously
April 15th text has to be sent (through email list)
April 20th pad is open, we discuss it for a week.
Then Anita has time to read the texts, pad and time to think/find/send the text for the next class with her on May 6thokay
okay thanks


(this program not official proposition) THREE WEEKS and classes after: to make it less heavy, excercise for next week (a small piece: your attempt to react to previous material/discussion) then everyone sends it through the mailinglist and for the 3 weeks after either deal with interpretation and argumentation and last class on prefacewhat is a small piecewait, not  said yet can we leave small up for interpretation?okayor maybe not i dont wanna read 3 pages per person.

what do people thinks of this? Irene & Cecile? I'm up for it but need some more guidelines. I would write a text wherein I can question scources of non language coming from a topic I choose myself not related to the pad.The pad "talks" will not be my subject, but I would use the questions that came up here to write with. The idea is that, with this piece, we will have some connections and contaminations before bubbling ourselves in our own topics

I'd like that! But my main concern for now stays finding a subject, even to just 'circle' around. The good thing about this class is that we can pick a subject to find out what is it for us to research and find sources and getting information etc. YEs! So there is no pressure into making this your thesis but you can


"But nothing completely coincides, and everything intermingles,
                or crosses over." (deleuze)