% Lines starting with % are comments and will be ignored
% comments may be treated as commands/actions/functions

% FS = Femke Snelting
% CH = Christoph Haag
% XK = Xavier Klein

% USED FOR NAME INDEXING
% HIDDENKEYWORDS: Klein, Xavier|Haag, Christoph



% TITLE: The Making of Conversations


%SCALEFONT: 1.35

The making of _Conversations_ was on many levels a process of dialogue, between people, processes, and systems.
Xavier Klein and Christoph Haag were as much involved in editorial decisions as they were in creating an experimental platform
that would allow us to produce a publication in a way true to the content of the conversations it would contain.
In **August 2014** we discussed the ideas behind their designs and the status of the systems they were developing for
the book that you are reading right now.

% RESETFONT:
% BIGSKIP:
% NOWSPEAKING: FS
% ---------------
I wanted to ask you Xavier,
how did you end up in Germany?

% NOWSPEAKING: XK
% ---------------
It's a long story, so I'll make it short. 
I benefit from the Leonardo program, a scholarship to do an internship abroad. 
So I searched for graphic design studios that use Open Source and Free Software. 
I asked OSP first, but they said _No_. I didn't know LAFKON at this time, and a friend told me: 
_Hey there is this graphic design studio in Germany_, so I asked and they said _Yes_.
So I was happy. (_laughs_)

% NOWSPEAKING: FS
% ---------------
How did you start working on this book?


% NOWSPEAKING: CH
% ---------------
I thought it would be nice to have a project during Xavier's stay in 
Augsburg with a specific outcome. Something going beyond pure experimentation.
So I asked Constant if there were any projects that need to be worked on. 
And I'm really happy with the _Conversations_ publication, because it is a good mixture.
There is the technical experiment, how you would approach something like this
using Free Software. And there is the editing side. To read all these opinions and reflections. 
It's really interesting from the content side, at least for me -- I don't dare to speak for Xavier.
So that's basically how it started.


% NOWSPEAKING: FS
% ---------------
You developed a constellation of tools that together are producing the book. 
Can you explain what the elements are, how this book is made?

% NOWSPEAKING: CH
% ---------------
We decided in the beginning to use Etherpad for the editing. A lot of documentation 
during Constant events was done with Etherpad and I found its very direct access to editing
quite inspiring. Earlier this year we prepared a workshop for the Libre Graphics Meeting, where we'd have 
a transformation from Etherpad pages to a printable `.pdf`. The idea was to somehow separate the 
content editing and the rendering. Basically I wanted to follow some kind of 'pull logic'. 
At a certain point in the process, there is an interface where you can pull out something 
without the need to interfere too much with the inner workings of this part.
There is the stable part, the editing on the Etherpad, and there is something, that can be more experimental 
and unstable which transforms the content to again a stable, printable version. 
I tried to create a custom markdown dialect, meant to be as simple as possible. 
It should reduce to some elements, the elements that are actually needed. 
For example if we have an interview, what is required from the content side? 
We have text and changing speakers. That's more or less the most important informations. 

So on the first level, we have this simple format and from there the transformation process starts. 
The idea was to have a level, where basically anybody, who knows how to use a text editor, can edit 
the text. But at the same time it should have more layers of complexity. It actually can get quite 
complex during the transformation process. But it should always have this level, where it's quite simple.
So just text and for example this one markup element for _ok now the speaker changes_.

In the beginning we experimented with differents tools, basically small scripts to perform 
all kinds of layout task. Xavier for example prepared a `hotglue2svg` converter. 
After that, we thought, why don't we try to connect different approaches? Not only the very strict 
markdown _to_ TeX _to_ `.pdf` transformations, but to think about, under which circumstances you would 
actually prefer a canvas-based approach. 
What can you do on a canvas that you can't do or is much harder with a markup language.


% NOWSPEAKING: FS
% ---------------
It seems you are developing an adhoc markup language? Is that related to what you wrote in the workshop description for _Operating Systems_:[^]{http://libregraphicsmeeting.org/2014/program/}  _Using operating systems as a metaphor, we try to imagine systems that are both structured and open_?

% NOWSPEAKING: CH
% ---------------
Yes. The idea was to have these connected/disconected parts. So you have the part where the 
content is edited in collaboration and you have the transformer script running separately on 
the individuals' computers. For me this solved in a way the problem of stability. You can use a quite 
elaborated, reliable software like Etherpad and derive something from it without going 
to its inner workings. You just pull the content from it, without affecting the software too much.
And you have the part, where it can get quite experimental and unreliable, without affecting 
all collaborators. Because the process runs on your own computer and not on the server. 

The markup concept comes from the documentation of a video streaming workshop in Linz. 
There we wanted to have the possibility to write the documentation collaboratively during the workshop 
and we needed also to solve problems like _How about the inclusion of images?_ 
That is where the first markup element came from, which basically just was 
was a specific line of text, which indicates 'here should be this/that image'.
If this specific line appears in the text during the transformation process, 
it triggers an action that will look for a specific file in the repository. 
If the image exists, it will write the matching macro command for LaTeX. 
If the image is not in the repository, it will do nothing. The idea was, that the creation 
of the `.pdf` should happen anyway, e.g. although somebody's repository might be not at the 
latest state and a missing image would prevent LaTeX from rendering the document. 
It should also ignore errors, for example if someone mistypes the name of image 
or the command. It should not stop the process, but produce a different output, 
e.g. without the image.

% REFER TO THE QUESTION?
% BALANCE BETWEEN EXPERIMENTAL/STABLE
% SYSTEMS THAT INTENDS UNINTENDED USE

% NOWSPEAKING: FS
% ---------------
Why do you think the process should not stop when there's an error? Why is that so important?

% NOWSPEAKING: CH
% ---------------
For me it was important to ensure some kind of feedback, 
even if there might be 'errors' in the output. Not just 'not work'. 
It can be really frustrating, when the first thing you have to do, is to find and solve a problem 
-- which can be quite hard with this sort of unprofessional scripts --
before there's is happening anything at all. 
So at a certain point, at least something should appear, even if it's not 
necessarily the way it was originally intended. Like a tolerance for errors, which 
would even produce something, that maybe different from what you expected.
But it should produce 'something'.


% NOWSPEAKING: FS
% ---------------
You imagine a kind of iterative development that we know from working with code, that allows you to keep differents versions, that keeps flowing in a way.

% NOWSPEAKING: CH
% ---------------
% Not one really right way to do it but it should be possible to also ... 
For example, this specific markup format. It's basically markdown and I wanted some more elements, 
like footnotes and the option to include citations and comments. 
I find it quite handy, when you write software, that you have the possibility to
include comments that are not part of the actual output, but part of the working process. 
I also enjoy this while writing text (e.g. with LaTeX), because I can keep comments or previous 
versions or drafts. So I really have my working version and transform this to some kind of output. 

But back to the etherpash workshop. Commands are basically comments that will trigger some action, 
for example the inclusion of a graphic or changing the font or anything. 
These commands are referenced in a separate file, so everybody can have different
versions of the commands on their own machine. It would not affect the other people. 
For example, if you wanted to have a much more elaborated `GRAFIK` command, 
you could write it and use it within your transformer of the document or you could 
introduce new commands, that are written on the main pad, but would be ignored for 
other people, because they have a different reference file. Does this make sense?

% NOWSPEAKING: FS
% ---------------
Yes. In a way, there are a lot of grey zones. There are elements that are global 
and elements that are local; elements can easily go parallel and none of the commands 
actually has always the same output, for everyone.

% NOWSPEAKING: CH
% ---------------
They can, but they do not need to. You can stick to the very basic version 
that comes directly from the repository. You could use this version to create a `.pdf` in the 'original' 
way, but you can easily change it on different levels. You can change the Bash commands that are 
triggered by the transformer script, you can work on the LaTeX macros or change the script itself. 
I found it quite important to have different levels of complexity. 
You may go deeper, but you do not necessarily have to. 
The Etherpad content is the very top level. You don't have to install a software on your computer, 
you can just open up a browser and edit the text. So this should make the access to collaboration easier. 
Because for a lot of experimental software you spend a lot of time to get it even running. 
Most often you have a very steep learning curve and I found it interesting, 
to separate this learning curve in a way. So you have different layers and if you really want to 
reconfigure on a deep level, you can, but you do not necessarily have to.


% NOWSPEAKING: FS
% ---------------
I guess you are talking about collaboration across different levels of complexity, where different elements can transform the final outcome. 
But if you take the analogy of CSS, or let's say a Content Management System that generates HTML, you could say that this also creates divisions of labour. So rather than making collaboration possible, it confines people to to different files. How do you think your systems invite people to take part in different levels?
Are these layers porous at all? Can they easily slip between different roles, let's say an editor, a typographer and a programmer?

% NOWSPEAKING: CH
% ---------------
Up to a certain extent it's like a division of labour. But if you call it a separation of tasks,
it makes definitely sense for me. It can be quite hard, if you have to take over responsability for 
everything at the same time. So it makes sense for me, also for collaboration, to offer this separation. Because 
it can be good to have the possibility not to have to deal with the whole system and everything
at the same time. You should be able to do so, but you should not necessarily have to. 
I think this is important, because a lot of frustration regarding 
Free Software systems comes from the necessity to go to the deep level at an early stage. I mean it's an interesting 
problem. The promise of convenience is quite hard, because most times is does not really work.
And it's also fine that it doesn't really work. At the same time it's frightening for people to get 
into it and so I think, it's good to do this step by step and also to have an easy top level opportunity 
to go into, for example, programming. This is also a thing I became really interrested in. 
The principle of the commandline to 'extend usage into programming'.[@Cramer:2007:CommandLinePoetics]
You do not have to have a development environment and then you compile software and then you have software,
but you have this flexible interface for your daily tasks.
If you really need to go a deeper level, you can, at least with Free Software.
But you don't have to ... compile your kernel every time.


% NOWSPEAKING: FS
% ---------------
Not every time! What I find interesting about your work is that you prefer not to conceal any layers.
References, commands, markup hints at the existence of other layers, and the potential to go somewhere else.
I wanted you to ask about your fascination or interest in something 'old school' as Bash scripting. 
Why is it so interesting?

% NOWSPEAKING: CH
% ---------------
Maybe at first point, it's a bit of a fascination for the obscure. That normally, as a graphic designer 
you wouldn't think of using the commandline for your work. When I started to use GNU/Linux, I'd try 
to stay away from the terminal. Which is basically, as I realised pretty soon, not possible.[^]{let's say hard} 
At some point, Bash scripting became really fascinating, because of the possibility to use automation
to correct or add functionalities. With the commandline it's easy to automate repetitive tasks, e.g. you can
write a small script that creates a separate `.svg` file for each layer in a `.svg` file[^]{using `sed`, stream editor for filtering and transforming text}, convert this separated `.svg` files to `.pdf` files[^]{using `inkscape` on the commandline} and combine the `.pdf` files to a multipage `.pdf`[^]{using `pdftk`}.
Just by collecting commands you'd normally type on your commandline interface.
% Something you would not want to do using a graphical user interface. 
%
%% So automation helps you to correct or add functionality.[^]{A kludge is often used to change the behavior 
%% of a system after it is finished, without having to make fundamental changes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kludge} 
% 
So in this case, automation helps to work around a missing multipage support in inkscape.
Not by changing the application itself, but by plugging something 'on top' of it.
%  
% MORE/BETTER EXAMPLES?:
% inkscape layer to pdf pages
% maybe it's not correcting misfunctions but adding functionality
%  
I like to think of the Bash as glue between different applications. So if we have a look now at 
the setup for the conversations publication, we may see that Bash makes it really easy to develop own 
configurations and setups. 
% I actually prefer the word setup to writing software...
I actually thought about prefering the word 'setup' to 'writing software' ...


% NOWSPEAKING: FS
% ---------------
Are you saying you prefer setup 'over' configuration?

% NOWSPEAKING: CH
% ---------------
Setup or configuration of software 'over' actually writing software. Because for me it's often more about connecting 
different applications. For example, here we have a browser-based text editor, from which the content is 
automatically pulled and transformed via text-transform tools and then rendered as a `.pdf`. What I find 
interesting, is that the scripts in between may actually be not very stable, but connect two stables parts.
One is the Etherpad, 
%which is basically taken as a ready-made, the export function of the Etherpad, 
where the export function is taken 'as is' and you've got the final state of a `.pdf`. 
In between, I try to have this flexible thing, that just needs to work  at this moment, in my special case. 
I mean certain scripts may reach quite an amount of stability, but not necessarily.
So it's very good to have this fixed state at the end.


% NOWSPEAKING: FS
% ---------------
You mean the `.pdf`?


% NOWSPEAKING: CH
% ---------------
I mean the `.pdf`, because ... These scripts are quite personal software and so I don't really think about 
other users beside me. For me it's a whole different subject to go to the usability level. 
That's maybe also a cause for the open state of the scripts. It would not make much sense -- if I want to have 
the opportunity for other people to make use of these things -- to have black boxes. Because for this, 
they are much too fragile. They can be taken over, but there is no promise of ... 
convenience?[^]{_... distributed in the hope that it will be useful, but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; 
without even the implied warranty of MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE._ 
[@fsf:2007:gpl]} 
And it's also important for myself, because the setups are really tailored to a specific use case 
and therefore more or less temporary. So I need to be able to read and adapt them myself.


% NOWSPEAKING: FS
% ---------------
I know that you usually afterwards you provide a description of how the collage was made. You publish the scripts, and sketches and intermediary outcomes. So it seems that usability is more in how you give access to the process rather than the outcome. Or would you say that software is the outcome?

% NOWSPEAKING: CH
% ---------------
Actually for me the process is the more interesting part of the work. A lot of the projects 
are maybe more like a proof of concept, than finished pieces of software. I often reuse parts of these 
setups or software pieces, so it's more collections of  'How to do something' then really a finished thing,
that's now suitable to produce this or that.


% NOWSPEAKING: FS
% ---------------
I'm just wondering, looking at your designs, if you would like that layering, 
this unstability to be somehow legible in the `.pdf` or the printed object?

% NOWSPEAKING: CH
% ---------------
% Maybe that does not even happen. 
I don't think that this unstability is really legible.
Because in the process there's a certain point where definitive decisions are taken.
It's also part of the concept. You make decisions and that make the final state of the object what it is. 
And if you want to get back to the more flexible part, then you would really have to get back. 
So I don't actually think that it is legible in the final output, on the first sight, that it is based on a very fluid 
working process. And for me that's quite ok. It's also important for me -- because I tend not to do so -- to 
take a decision at a certain point. But that's not necessarily the ultimate decision and therefore it's also important 
to keep the option open to redefine ... 'the thing'.

% NOWSPEAKING: FS
% ---------------
What you're saying, is that you can be decisive in your design decisions because the outcome could also be another.
You could always regenerate the `.pdf` with other decisions.

% NOWSPEAKING: CH
% ---------------
Yes. For example, I would regenerate the `.pdf` with the same decisions, another person maybe would 
take different decisions. But that's one step before the final object. For example, if we do not talk about the `.pdf`, but we actually talk about the book, then it's very clear, that there are decisions, that need to be taken or that have been taken. 
And actually I like the feeling of convenience when things get finished. They are done. Not configurable forever.

% NOWSPEAKING: FS
% ---------------
(_laughs_)
That's convenient, if things get done!

For this specific book, you have made a few decisions, for example your selection of fonts is particular. 

Xavier, can you say something about the typography of Conversations?


% NOWSPEAKING: XK
% ---------------
Huuumn yep, for the typographic decisions ... in the beginning we searched for fancy fonts, but in a way came back to use very classic fonts, respectively one classic font. So the Junicode[^]{http://junicode.sourceforge.net/}  for the text and the OCR-A[^]{http://sourceforge.net/projects/ocr-a-font/} for anything else. Because we decided to focus on testing different ways of layouting and use the fonts as a way to keep a certain continuity between the parts. 
We thought this can be more interesting, than to show that we can find a lot of beautiful, fancy fonts.


% NOWSPEAKING: CH
% ---------------
So in the beginning, we thought about having a different font for every speaker, but sooner or later we realised that it
would be good to have something that keeps the whole thing together. Right now, this are the two fonts. 
The Junicode, which is a font for medievalists, and the OCR-A, which is a optical character recognition font from the 
early age of computer technology. So the hypothesis was, to have this combination 
-- a very classical typeface inspired by the 16th century and a typeface optimized for machine reading -- 
that maybe will produce an interesting clash of two different approaches.
While at the same time providing a continuous element throughout the book. 
But that still has to be proven in the final layout. 


% NOWSPEAKING: FS
% ---------------
I find it interesting that both fonts in their own way are somehow conversational. 
They are both used in situations where one system needs to talk to another.

% NOWSPEAKING: CH
% ---------------
Yeah, definitely in a way. They are both optimised for a special usage, which, by the way, isn't the usage of our case. 
One for the display of medieval texts, where you have to have lot of different signs and ligatures and ... 
that's the Junicode.
The other one, the OCR-A, is optimized to be legible by machines. 
So that are two different directions of conversation. And they're both Free and Open Source fonts ...


% NOWSPEAKING: FS
% ---------------
And for the layout? How are the divider pages going to be constructed?

% HIDDENKEYWORDS: Stephan, Benjamin

% NOWSPEAKING: CH
% ---------------
For the divider pages, it's an application 'Built with Processing', done by Benjamin[^]{Stephan}. 
% HIDDENKEYWORDS: processing.org
In a way, it's a different approach, because it's a software with an extensive Graphical User Interface, 
with a lot of options. So it's different from the very modular, connective approach. 
There we decided to have this software, which is directly controlled by the controller, the person who uses it. 
% And again, there's the point where the definitive decision has to be taken.
% _Ok, this is the way I want to the title pages to look._ 
And again, there is this moment of definitive decision.
_Ok, this is exactly how I want the title pages to look._
And then they are put in a fixed state. 
At the same time, the software will be part of the repository, to be usable as a tool. 
So it's a very ... not a 'very classic' ... approach.
To write '**your**' software for '**your**' very specific use case.
In a more monolithic way ...

% N!OWSPEAKING: CH
% ---------------
Just to add this. In this custom markdown dialect, I decided at a point to include a command, 
which is `INCLUDEPAGES`, where you can provide a `.pdf` file via an url to be included 
in the document. So the `.pdf` may be stored anywhere, as long as it is accessible over the internet. 
I found this an interesting opportunity for collaboration. Because if somebody does not want 
to stick to the grid given by the LaTeX configuration or to this kind of working in general, 
this person could create a `.pdf`, store it online, reference it and the file will be included. 
This can be a very disconnected way of contributing to the final book. And that's also a thing we're now 
trying to test ourselves. Because in the beginning we developed a lot of different little scripts, for example the 
`hotglue2svg` converter. And right now we're trying to extend this. For example, to create one interview 
in Scribus and include the `.pdf` made with Scribus. To also test ourselves different approaches.


% NOWSPEAKING: FS
% ---------------
This book will be both a collage and have a overall, predefined structure provided by the lay-out engine?

% NOWSPEAKING: CH
% ---------------
I'm trying to make pragmatic use of the functionalities of LaTeX, which is used for the final compiling of the `.pdf`.
So for example, also ready-made `.pdf` files included into the final document are referenced in the table of contents.


% NOWSPEAKING: FS
% ---------------
Can you explain that again ?


% NOWSPEAKING: CH
% ---------------
Separate `.pdf`s, that are included into the final document will be referenced in the table of contents.
We can still make use of the automatic generation of page numbers in the table of contents, so there it goes together. 
There are certain borders, for example since the `.pdf`s are more like finished documents, indexing will probably not work. 
Because even if you can extract references from the `.pdf`, I didn't find a way until now, how to find out the page number in a reliable way. 
There you also realise, that you can do much more with the plain text sources than you can do with a finished document. 
But I think that's ok. In this case you wouldn't to have a keyword reference to the `.pdf`, while it's still in the table of contents ...


% NOWSPEAKING: FS
% ---------------
What if someone would want to use one of these interviews for something else?
How could this book becoming source for an another publication?

% NOWSPEAKING: CH
% ---------------
That's also an advantage of the quite simple source format on the Etherpad. It can be easily converted to e.g. simple markdown, just by a little script. I found this quite important -- because at this point we're putting quite an amount of work into the preparation of the texts -- to have it not in a format that is not parseable. I really wanted to keep the documents transformable in a easy way. So now you could just have a ~fiveliner, that will pull the text from the Etherpad and convert it to simple markdown or to HTML.


% NOWSPEAKING: FS
% ---------------
Wonderful.

% NOWSPEAKING: CH
% ---------------
If you have a more or less clean source format, then it's in most cases easy to convert it to different formats. 
For example, the Evan Roth interview, you provided as a ConTeXt file. So with some text manipulation, it was easy to do the 
transformation to our Etherpad markup. And it would be harder if the content is stored as an Open Office document, but still feasible. 
`.pdf` in a way is the worst case, because it's much harder to extract usable content again, depending on the creator. 
So I think it's important to keep the content in a readable and understandable source format.


% NOWSPEAKING: FS
% ---------------
Xavier, what is going to happen next?

% NOWSPEAKING: XK
% ---------------
Right now, I'm the guy who tests on Scribus, Inkscape. But I don't know if it's the answer to your question.

% NOWSPEAKING: FS
% ---------------
I was just curious because you have a month to work on this still, so I was wondering ... are there other things you are testing or trying ?

% NOWSPEAKING: XK
% ---------------
Yeah, I think I want to finish the `hotglue2svg.sh`,
I mean it's my first Bash program, I want to raise my baby. 
(_laughs_)
But right now I'm trying to find different ways of layouts. 
The first one is the one with the big squares, the big unicode characters and all the arrows. 
So it's very complicated, but it's the attempt to find an another way to express 
a conversation in text.


% NOWSPEAKING: FS
% ---------------
Can you say more about that ?

% NOWSPEAKING: XK
% ---------------
Because in the beginning, my first try was to keep the 'life' of a conversation in the text with some things,
like indentation or with graphic things, like the choice of the unicode characters. If this can be a way to express 
a conversation. Because it's hard to it with programming stuff so we're using GUI based software.


% NOWSPEAKING: CH
% ---------------
It's a bit coming to the question, what you are doing differently, if you work with a direct visual feedback. 
So you don't try to reduce the content to get it through a logical structure. Because that's in a way how the markdown to LaTeX transformation is doing it. You set certain rules, that may be in special cases soft rules, but you really try to establish a logical structure and have a set of rules and apply them. For me, it's also an interesting question. 
% Because, if you think of something like classical grid based graphic design, where you try to introduce a set of rules 
% in the beginning and then to keep for the rest of the project. That's in a way a very obvious case for computation. 
If you think of grid based graphic design, where you try to introduce a set of rules 
in the beginning and then to keep for the rest of the project, that's in a way a very obvious case for computation. Where you just 
%automatically 
apply a set of rules. 
With this application of rules you are a lot confronted in daily graphic design. And this is also a way of working you learn during your studies. Stick to certain logical or maybe visual grids.
And so now the question is: What's the difference if you do a really visual layout. 
Do you deal differently with the content, does it make sense, or if you're just always coming back to a certain grid,
then you might as well do it by computation. 
So that's something that we wanted to find out. 
What advantage do you really gain from having a canvas-based approach throughout the layout process.

% NOWSPEAKING: FS
% ---------------
In a way the interviews are very similar, because it's always peoples speaking, but at the same time each of the conversations is slightly different. So in what way is the difference between them made legible, through the same set of rules or by making specifics rules for each of them?

% NOWSPEAKING: CH
% ---------------
If you do the layout by hand you can take decisions that would be much harder to translate to code. 
For example, how to emphasize certain part of the text or the speaker. You're much closer to the interpretation of the content? You're not designing the ruleset but you are really working on the visual design of the content ... 
The point why it's interesting to me is because working as a designer you get quite often reduced to this visual design of the content, at the same it may make sense in a lot of cases.
So it's a evaluation of these different approaches. Do you design the ruleset or do you design the final outcome?
And I think it has both advantages and disadvantages.